The meeting was held as part of the “Engineer walks into a bar” series, where engineers from different IT companies talk about professional non-engineering topics. A series of events was organized by engineers from the Miro company, with the support of the Dolgushev and Storozhilov DevRel-bureau.
The third meetup of the series will take place on September 24th. The topic is how business and engineers communicate and negotiate with each other. Speakers - CTOs and team leaders from Miro, Yandex.Practicum, LANIT, Algorithmics. Registration .
Table of contents:
- What is toxicity? Examples of
- Tactics: how to deal with toxicity
- Low social skill and correlation with toxicity
- Toxicity of strangers offline, online. How it works?
- What if people think you are toxic yourself?
What is toxicity? Examples of
Toxic ("toxic") - the word of 2018 according to the Oxford Dictionary. In addition to its direct meaning, the word toxic can be used to describe a workplace environment, culture, relationship, or characterize unpleasant features, discomfort, and stress.
Nikita Lobachev, Software Engineer, Miro: It seems to me that toxicity is a rather abstract term and everyone understands it differently. In most cases, what is called toxicity arises from a misunderstanding, that is, people think differently, talk about different things, argue because of this, and you always want to call the arguing side toxic.
Toxicity is something rare, openly aggressive non-constructive behavior, shouting, mating, fighting, harassment and all that.For example, in one of the companies there was a front-end lead, and I often got in trouble with him about the approach to development. I drowned for “simple and understandable”, but he was more for a hardcore engineering approach. And there was always a desire to say: "Dude, you just don't want to listen." But it's one thing when you communicate one-on-one, and you get this feeling, and another thing when several people disagree with you. This is a good moment to think: maybe these are not toxic guys, but you differ in views, and you have different ideas about beauty.
Stanislav Vlasov, Engineering Manager, Parma TG:Personally, I look at it from a management point of view. My understanding of toxicity is non-constructive behavior regarding the values ​​or goals of a team or company, and this pattern can very easily be passed on to other people.
For example, during the storming stage, confrontations may arise between team members that are not resolved and accumulate like a snowball, turning into toxicity.
Or when a manager is hired, but they do not really explain to employees what he will do, who he will lead, what the value of his role is. Because of this, employees often think of this themselves and begin to behave toxicly.
A similar case, when a leader, team lead, and employees dissatisfied with this appear inside the team. They do not work with this in any way, and subsequently their behavior becomes toxic: they begin to sabotage, suppress the authority of the team lead.The last typical case when they do not work with employee demotivators, when he accumulates a large number of these demotivators, and he realizes that he is already starting to quit the company, or is looking for a job, or has already found a new job - often in this case, his behavior can be toxic.
Pavel Kiryanov, Technical Lead, Xsolla: I think toxicity is a pretty strong term, which for me as a manager is a lazy decision.
Toxicity is an attempt to label a situation that can be investigated and resolved productively.As a rule, all communication problems occur due to the fact that the basic values ​​differ slightly. And as a manager, it is useful for me to try to dig deep into the problem and understand what everyone wanted. Therefore, I do not like to call practically anything toxicity at all except what Nikita said - direct violence, harassment, things that obviously go beyond the framework of universal norms of behavior.
For example, someone wants to do quickly, and someone wants to do well. And this is not as obvious a choice as it might seem. In either case, we will win something, lose something, but we must always come to a common opinion and move together as a team. It may well turn out that someone who wants to do it quickly now does it in order to save time and then do some technical tasks that will allow us to clean up the legacy, and in the end he has a very clear and good case. These things happen.
Bulat Salmanov, Technical Head of Social Media Marketing Department, SEMrush:I think toxicity is what spreads. There is aggressive behavior, there is conflict behavior, but it does not apply, it is always on one person, everyone looks at him like a moron, and nothing happens. There is no conflict here, just an "unusual" person. And then there is negative behavior that spreads, and as a manager, this is what interests me.
Let's take an example - a person is late for work, everyone is watching, everyone is already used to it, they do everything on time, but he does not have time. Well, that's okay. And it so happens that this begins to incite others not to meet deadlines, not to fit, not to come on time, to ignore something. And this is already toxic behavior.
Conflict degenerates into toxic behavior when it begins to affect the atmosphere in the team.And this behavior should be marked, noticed, but it should be called more accurately: “We began to ignore the order” or “We became angry with each other and do not hear. Let's do something about it. " This is an example.
Tactics: how to deal with toxicity
Stanislav Vlasov, Parma TG: Probably the most ideal option for a manager is when the team is mature and when it can independently solve problems at events such as a retrospective or some other. It is more difficult if the team does not solve the problem.
First, it's worth giving feedback. Feedback is very important. Especially if people are conscious, they may not notice toxic behavior.The next option, when the feedback does not work, is to sell the problem. Make it clear to a person that the way he behaves is counter-constructive to his goals. If he understands that this is counter-constructive to his goals, then he understands that this is his problem, and he is motivated to solve this problem.
And the last option, when it is impossible to treat, then, as they say, to wet. That is, to remove a person either from the team or from the company.
Bulat Salmanov, SEMrush: Experience shows that where the interests of the parties are not respected, where everyone does not speak out what he needs and what is interesting, problems always begin. But there is also a problem in that people either do not fully understand what they want, or they cannot tell it.
The first thing I mentioned was that people themselves do not fully understand their goals. You come to a person and ask: "What would you like in your career, where would you like to develop?" - "Well, I do not know. I'm ok". And I understand them. At 32, I only begin to understand a little what I want from life in general, so this is a difficult question.
First of all, you always need to find out the interests of the parties. Not to force you to do it your way, but to try to be partners.And they can't tell - it's usually about the level of trust in the team. Here, in a team, we can scold each other, share something, and we are all fine, trust is high. And there are teams where they say nothing but work.
Pavel Kiryanov, Xsolla: It is very important to find out what is the interest of each specific person who is involved in the conflict. But if a lead has become toxic and defends its personal interest, involving the whole team in it, it's a pretty significant failure. I love the term servant leader. The lead should first of all be interested in what the team wants, and then, probably, in his fishing.
On the other hand, if a person has a position: “I work until six, and after six it’s all over, I have my own business,” then I also understand that, respect it. Quite often, IT companies have an unspoken culture of rework that no one talks about out loud, but it does exist. And people who go against this culture often fall under the rink.
It's great to say the terms here. That is, to talk to a person, find out that he wants to work until six and no later, and the company wants him to work later, and, possibly, offer him additional buns, bonuses for the fact that he will meet halfway.
Nikita Lobachev, Miro: It is difficult to add to what the guys have already said, since they said it very well.
Trying to bypass a person you don't like, even though he is in charge of the team, is a good way to get into conflict. Probably not worth it.
Low social skill and correlation with toxicity
Bulat Salmanov, SEMrush: For a long time I have been looking at myself as a programmer in the first place. Everybody measures by themselves. I believe that one of the big problems in IT is infantilism. When we talk, for example, about such an important skill as an understanding of responsibility, it starts to reach that neither you fully understand what responsibility really is, nor do other people have it. And such skills, which appear with serious maturation, are very few for programmers, because they have little to deal with serious communication at work.
You are basically in the logical world, where everything is imperative, and where you say, “Do this, do that,” and they listen to you. It doesn't work that way in real life.Growing up happens through stress, serious problems, and this does not happen with you. You are constantly sitting, doing work, you are paid good money, because you are a great fellow, your profession is rare, and you think: "I am really handsome." When you earn more in a month than your two parents do in a year, you start to think that you are cool and right everywhere. I think this is one of the main reasons for such problems in general.
Accordingly, it is worth working on awareness and personality growth so that changes take place. But this is not a quick pill with a silver bullet, but really a very long job, and it can take a long time. I have been working on myself for 8 years and I cannot say that something has changed seriously. I work with a psychologist, and as he recently told me: “Everyone is now running around with infantilism, but this is a very simple thing that is very easy to treat. You have to tell the person: “You're an adult. Act like an adult. I'm sure you can handle it. " I tried. Not to say it always works, but it's a good thing.
Nikita Lobachev, Miro:I can add more about the mindset, where these low social skills can manifest themselves. Thinking is often built within the framework that there is something right and something wrong. That is, the right architecture, the wrong architecture, the right workflow, the wrong workflow. And if you drown for something that you think is right, then we will not stand up for ours, all means are good, and I will argue for a month, two, three, as long as it takes, because it is right. While this is a fairly counterproductive approach, it is usually more efficient to think in terms of productivity.
It doesn't matter what is right and what is wrong, and it is important how much it helps to move forward.
Stanislav Vlasov, Parma TG: I think this is largely due to the fact that, as we found out, we have such problems due to insufficient communication, due to the fact that a person who could influence on problem on the positive side. I would like to look at this topic from the other side - they often underestimate the need for some kind of softskills for developers, and also underestimate the managerial component, its value for the team, so that such problems are solved in time and they do not turn into toxicity.
There are situations when team leaders are former developers who are not trained from the managerial point of view, and who are not trained to give feedback. If you are being trained, that's good.
Nikita Lobachev, Miro:There is a good rule of thumb for catching such toxic reactions - this is when you want to say: “Yes, I don't care what these business / designers / marketing / guys from another team want! We won't do that because it's bad from a code / optimization / stuff standpoint. "
If you want to say “yes, I don't care,” then most likely something in your communications is going wrong.
Toxicity of strangers offline, online. How it works?
Bulat Salmanov, SEMrush: I don't like to say the phrase “It used to be better”, but among the developers on the forums it used to be better. In the sense that you could ask a question, and they answered you, and even wrote some code for you, showed something, you began to understand. And this was not used as a benefit to oneself, but simply used as a help. And now even in IT forums they are already starting to throw you at everyone in a row: "Look manuals / read the documentation / PHP sucks / I don't know what sucks / everything sucks." And this toxicity is difficult to deal with by firing - that's the main problem.
For example, you speak, and I say: “Why did you put on such a lame presentation? Don't you think that you even have nothing to show? " If you go to justify, then you supported my question.
If you say, “You're just a little unconstructive. But if you're interested, we can talk further, ”- you won't let my toxicity develop further.Do not encourage such behavior, do not be driven by emotions. Because it is difficult, when you are watered, to stay in constructiveness. It seems to me that this is the most effective thing we can do.
There are also the simplest solutions, for example, to rank comments not by plus signs, but by people's karma, because karma is put for really good answers, and plus signs are put, perhaps, for funny jokes. And this is also important.
Nikita Lobachev, Miro: This is all a conversation about the community. There are various resources, conferences. And here it is about the same as with people, friends, with whom you are friends. There are many people in the world, you choose with whom you want to communicate and with whom you do not want to. I started writing on Hacker News, Habrahabr, StackOverflow, and you think: “Yeah, there are always disputes in the comments, but here the guys are more or less constructive. So next time I will write here first of all. "
Monitor the reaction of the community, and look for those communities in which you can communicate more constructively.There are not three communities in the world. Just like he talked to one person, he is not very good. In a bar, I approached a man, he also swears a lot, talks about politics, but you are not interested. "Probably, you shouldn't go to bars at all, there are no good people in bars."
This is not a question that they do not exist at all, but this is about the fact that you need to invest time and effort in this, you need to reflect on this topic, decide for yourself which community you like more, which less, what do you look for in them.
Pavel Kiryanov, Xsolla:I will probably say the obvious thing. I don't understand at all how online comments can be toxic. There is not even a person with whom you are communicating in real time. The message is separated from the author and you read it yourself, you draw an image in your own head, and this image offends you. If you think about it, it sounds like nonsense - you yourself brought yourself to negative emotions. You shouldn't treat it that way, but just look at all this controversy on the Internet as a productive useful thing or unproductive and unhelpful. We simply do not participate in unproductive and unhelpful ones, that's all. As Nikita said.
Stanislav Vlasov, Parma TG:I think the guys said everything here. It seems to me that it depends very much on the community, format. If we are talking about remote, that is, about the Internet, this is one thing, but if we are talking about communication at conferences, then this is a different case.
But in general, if we are talking about some kind of search for an answer to a question, then you need to bring it to a constructive. If we are talking about just communicating and such communication in this office, then I think that there is little value for being in such an office.
What if people think you are toxic yourself?
Pavel Kiryanov, Xsolla: It seems to me that a great way is to involve a moderator in these communications so that someone can help resolve this, because from both sides you can endlessly fight against this wall of misunderstanding between each other. It's great to talk to someone else. If this happens in a work relationship, then it could be a lead, or a Scrum master, or any other psychotherapist in the company.
Bulat Salmanov, SEMrush: Maybe we should just bring it to the constructive. If they talk about toxicity, then find out what is wrong. Some specific cases, get feedback in a constructive way.
Nikita Lobachev, Miro: And it probably depends on how much you want to make friends with this person in a sense.
If the person is adequate and you can communicate with him, and you want to make peace, then just go to a bar, talk about what bothers each of you.If it is not very interesting to put up with him and it comes only from one person, then, probably, you can score if it does not directly affect the work processes.
Bulat Salmanov, SEMrush: I would say that to ask a person directly: "How do you think it would not be toxic?" He would give you his version. And then it's up to you to decide whether you are ready to adjust to him and become what he said, or not. Here, too, you have to choose. Maybe you want to remain only toxic and these communications are not so expensive for you.
If you see that people quite frankly and honestly talk, for example, in retrospectives, about some personal things, for example, an adult bearded man says: “You upset me. All evening then I was sausage after an argument with you, ”- this means that trust is high. And here you can already ask: “Am I toxic? Are there any problems communicating with me? "
It seems to me that in our culture, especially in Russia, it is not very customary to talk about emotions.We wrote in the comments that it is customary to suppress emotions. Therefore, it is difficult to get someone to start saying: “I hate how you say it. I hate the way you ask questions. " The first step is to start building trust. How to start building trust? You have to trust first. No other way. And start talking about some secret things for yourself. That is, it is a long job.
Stanislav Vlasov, Parma TG: I would also like to add. It is probably very important to have people around who can give you feedback. It is corny, if there are such people, you can simply ask them for feedback, they will unload it. If there is something toxic, then if these people can be trusted in the context of feedback, you will definitely find out about it.
Alexey Dolgushev, DevRel-bureau:That is, the short version of the advice: "If you suspect something, ask."
Pavel Kiryanov, Xsolla: It also fucking helps to ask anonymously. “Guys, I don’t know who wrote this. Just write, please, what you think of me. "
Nikita Lobachev, Miro:I had such a trigger when the number of people with whom you have a conflict is more than one. If you have some kind of difficult relationship with one person, and normal with the rest, then it is still difficult to understand. And if you see that with that, and with that, and with that, and with the fourth, and with the fifth, then, probably, either you are doing something wrong, or it’s just not your company, not your place, and , accordingly, it is worth either changing the behavior, or getting a job in another team or another company. If this is not personal, but a group of people with whom you have a difficult relationship, then most likely something is going wrong.
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On September 24, the third meetup of the series will take place. The topic is how business and engineers communicate and negotiate with each other. Speakers - CTOs and team leaders from Miro, Yandex.Practicum, LANIT, Algorithmics.
registration