I note right away that I took this interview for the first time, so I would be grateful if you could share in the comments how I did it. Speech can be clumsy in places, because Russian is not a native language for those who shared their thoughts with me. Do not judge strictly, in general. I can say for sure - for myself, I learned some interesting things about our occupational diseases and how to prevent them.
What does the psychologist say?
Ilze PlauΔa, doctor of psychology, clinical psychologist, shared her experience of work with our colleagues.
- What questions and problems do programmers most often ask?
- It seems to me that the first thing we work with is building relationships. Some problems building intimate relationships, or social anxiety in general. The second topic is how to deal with anxiety or overwork. People work, delve into their tasks, and as a result, at some point, a person realizes that it is difficult for him even to think. And then we look at how to organize the work, so as not to forget to make some pauses in the process, thereby preventing a decrease in working capacity.
- Is anxiety generally typical of programmers?
- Yes. Sometimes, of course, it depends on the nature of the work. Programmers are programmers, but the circumstances of the work are very different. Some are checked how long you sit.
- Yes, there is often a worker timer that monitors.
- One is that there is constant control. Also, some, I know, like to work from home, others prefer to work in the office. But in any case, this is, in principle, an individual work, and anxiety arises, doubts about the results, work productivity. This is probably more connected with some kind of personal beliefs. As a result, anxiety can develop, making it difficult to concentrate on tasks.
- Do you think that personality type traits help to become a programmer, or working as a programmer leads to similar traits?
- I think a little of both. What good can I say: as long as I work with programmers, it is quite convenient to work. Understanding is built very quickly due to the high level of cognitive development and thinking. Emotional regulation is less, maybe. It seems to me that there is a characteristic type of personality: understanding, logical thinking is better developed, but the emotional side is slightly weaker. On the other hand, this is an abstract work, in reality it is not there. And it is chosen by people who find it easier to concentrate on abstractions, and not only on specific things. And, of course, the question is how to compensate for the fact that we are sitting in the virtual world.
- How can you compensate for abstract work?
- In our world we work a lot with our heads, but we have the whole body. And sometimes we forget about it, about the physical activity that is needed, about sensory information - smells, tactility. Mindfulness gives a lot. There are formal practices of mindfulness and informal ones. Informal means that I do some things consciously. For example, if I cut a potato, then I do not think about my plans for the next couple of days, but watch how I cut, how it looks. Those. need to be in the place where I am. Otherwise, the whole day is spent in this abstract information. In general, use more sensory senses. For example, even if you drink tea, you can drink it in different ways.
- Well, when we usually take a tea break, we think about some tasks or problems. It is for this that a pause for tea is taken - to understand why something does not work.
- (Laughs) Well, one young man generally said to me: "In principle, if you are sitting and working and you want to eat, you can just sit a little longer and get overwhelmed." Don't do that. These pauses are needed.
- About the type of personality. I remember that a schizoid personality type was indicated in psychodiagnostics . Is this what you are talking about, which is more typical for programmers?
- I think yes. Not everyone, of course. But there are some peculiarities, how to sit alone, to work in an abstract sphere. It is difficult for a person for whom communication is important. I remember we had an accountant at work. She really liked to communicate with everyone. The only problem: when we all left, she said, "It's time to get to work." It is easier for the schizoid type without communication. But here the request arises to learn how to build relationships.
Apart from relationships and anxiety, what other problems arise? What's in third place? Are the same depressions often encountered?
- Frankly, I probably never had a person with depression, at least from programmers.
- So I'm the first.
- (Laughs)Yes, especially not. It was about changing jobs. Programmers can work in different conditions, different organization of working teams. Somewhere the team is scattered in different countries, someone calls once a week, and they have enough, but someone needs an office. And with some we examined the organization of labor in this aspect. But the main thing is still relationship and anxiety.
- Got it, thanks for the short interview.
For those who are too lazy to read about the schizoid type, I recommend not to be lazy. Well, I will immediately note that this is not about schizophrenia. In short, he is characterized by self-isolation, seeming self-sufficiency, often outstanding abilities, and on top of it, difficulties in building relationships. All that the psychologist told about. There are 1-2% of such people, and this is not a disorder, it is just a set of facets of our personality, with which we can and should somehow live. By the way, vote in the poll whether you recognize yourself in the description or not. Let's see if the Habr community differs in percentage terms.
What will the psychiatrist tell you?
With the director of the Veldre center, where I was being treated, a professor at the Riga Stradins University, we talked for about half an hour. And, I would say, this dialogue touched on similar problems, but on a deeper level.
- Do programmers often contact you?
- In principle, quite often. How can this be explained? .. In general, psychiatric diseases of various kinds, both easier and more severe, are nevertheless diseases of gifted people. They are often talented people who can create something extraordinary. And today programmers are outstanding people with a good education. Not everyone can become a programmer, just as not everyone can become an artist or write a book. Still, you need talent and your own way of thinking, intelligence should be above average. This is good, but sometimes, unfortunately, it leads to some kind of disorder. The brain is processing a little, too much load, and this sometimes leads to disorders.
Plus, a programmer cannot be a person who does his job purely technically. They work with their own interest, with some kind of passion, this work happens at night, sometimes with an irregular schedule. This can sometimes lead to overload, especially when something needs to be done or finished urgently.
I would say there are two categories: some are overworking, and there is more neurotic and depressive spectrum, others are with too developed talent, and among them there are patients with schizophrenia. Let's say we know there is a Nash who won the Nobel Prize. Somewhere this genius and illness go hand in hand. In general, programmers are a separate contingent among our patients.
- That is, basically it is either a schizophrenic spectrum or a depressive one.
- Depressive-neurotic, due to large overloads, non-observance of the food regimen, daily regimen, rest regimen ... The programmer remains a programmer for 24 hours, and this can lead to breakdowns. And, of course, they need a separate approach. I have patients who work well, even with serious illnesses. They feel that they are needed in the labor market, and the employer treats them loyally: they allow them to come later, work in the evening, and adapt the workload. If the employer adapts, he gets the most from this person. And if you start to press, give heavy loads, plan incorrectly, then there may be breakdowns.
- And what can you do in order not to fall into these categories? Is there any kind of prevention?
- If it's a difficult category, like schizophrenia, balance is important. It is important to adapt to this, to find such an optimal mode of work in order to use this talent. After all, a person can work intensively for two hours, and then maybe even a whole day when there is no such drive, there is no energy to work. Plus, with schizophrenia, interest is very important. It is very, very difficult for them to do some technical and uninteresting work. As one person said: he did a little, this ... He switches, and in the end he completed all the tasks. But he cannot sit and do one task stupidly to the end, he needs to find some kind of interest for himself. It is important to find this approach on your own and to be flexible for the employer. Then you can get a lot from such a person. An individual approach is important.
Plus, of course, in both cases it is important to follow the regime as much as possible. And try to disconnect during the day. I worked for 2 hours - leave the office for at least 10-15 minutes, look into the distance, stretch my eyes, relax, get some fresh air. You should not work for 6-8 hours without a break and even forget to eat. Well, or standard - kefir, loaf, a pack of chips ... Food is also very important. Ideally, at least a day or two on the weekend, for example, disconnect and do without a computer. Of course, fresh air, walks. At least minimal physical activity. Even if he does not become an athlete, but at least take a brisk step, count the steps with a phone or a bracelet. And food, of course. Find this moment, stop, eat. And even when working from home, it is important to try to maintain this regime. Whatever difficulties arise in the work,these elementary things are very important to preserve.
Of course, all diseases, more or less serious, have a system of triggers, something triggers it. It can be some kind of infection, trauma, psychological distress, a big overload. You need to be moderate, perhaps even give up some work, but preserve your fortune and yourself.
What I would not recommend very much - all sorts of substances: alcohol, of course, I really do not recommend marijuana. Schizophrenia has etiological features, and common genes have been found associated with schizophrenia and marijuana use. There are various theories, for example, that marijuana can trigger schizophrenia.
- That is, there were cases when actively using marijuana fell ill with schizophrenia?
- Yes, yes, and then we struggle very hard with it. Next, stimulants, energy drinks. Sometimes you still want to. But there is a very concentrated caffeine, sugar, other substances that raise energy at the moment, but this shakes the normal balance of the body. Of course, sometimes you can have strong coffee and drinks, but not so that you constantly sit on them. God forbid amphetamines. In those professions where you need a sharp brain, where you need to work actively, there are risks that people start to increase their working capacity. Or then they relax with alcohol or weed.
If we are talking about the prevention of mental illness, I would highly recommend thinking ten times. Perhaps there are some other options.
- For example, work less.
- Here, of course, it seems at that moment that both I need and everyone needs ...
- Well, yes, there are usually deadlines when you break into a cake, but the result must be ready by this date, and also mistakes begin to pour in.
The main thing is that sometimes you need to refuse something. Okay, money, okay, a friend asked there, something needs to be done there ... Saying βnoβ is also good for your health. Sometimes it seems to us that all the money needs to be earned, all the work done, but health can be undermined this way.
- Got it. And what about the neurotic-depressive spectrum?
- Somewhere it is similar, but, of course, in these cases there are more often external factors that provoke: situations in the family, some conflicts with the employer or employees. These situations can be more influential. There is also a risk of substances or alcohol. Anxiety may occur, due to which they start drinking a little in the evening. And negative reaction patterns arise. But here there are external factors that need to be especially caught up in such situations and analyze whether it is worth working there anyway. Maybe it's worth discussing the situation, what's wrong. Sometimes there is a wrong organization of work at work. For example, if a person works well and can do a lot, everything is brought down on him. He cannot say "no", they are being brought down on him, he agrees, and ten more people just sit.
You need to think about this situation yourself and understand why this is: why I get so tired, why I become irritable, why I start to make mistakes, why I want to drink in the evening. Stop for a while and think what the problem is. If in schizophrenia it can be a genetically determined serious illness, then there may be various factors: the boss is in a bad mood, he is out of touch with his girlfriend ... There will be more psychological external factors.
- Another question. The job of a programmer is often associated with negative expectations, because it is almost certain that what I write will not work the first time. I know that something will not work for me right away, I am constantly engaged in solving some problems, looking for some mistakes. How can this affect?
- I think the very specifics of the work are as follows. No one wrote a script to get it working the first time.
My advice is that psychological work with the customer is very important. I would recommend meeting, finding a contact person before starting work and understanding who I will be working with. Maybe already ask more questions.
- There is usually a separate person involved. There is a project manager there, and programmers are usually on the sidelines.
- This, I think, is wrong. It turns out that one invented something, gave another task. These people do not really contact each other, only through intermediaries. Then you get hurt, they start to divide who wrote the architecture wrong, who wrote the program wrong. But this can be mitigated, because it is a reality, it is already clear that one cannot do without it completely. And the better this job is, the easier it will be to decide.
The problem is not that something is not working, the problem is that everyone is expecting something, everyone is blaming each other, there is no collaboration. If a person sees that there will be no joint work, he already has a very formal attitude. There will inevitably be conflict or unpleasant situations. If we talk about prevention, it would be very good if the programmer could walk through the architecture, ask some nuances. And already the person will be more closely in the process and less run into the programmer. Well, that's how I see it.
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- Should be worked out. It depends on the type of person. Every programmer is different. There are people of a neurotic nature. Since childhood, they worry about everything, they want to do everything perfectly. This will be more difficult. He wants everything at once, he wants the customer to say: βIt worked well, okay. Well, they missed something, yes. " He needs such an attitude, he is still worried. There are people with good self-esteem, they understand their level. The advice is to be professional. You understand that not a single serious script went the first time. When you studied, you were probably told that. This is professionalism. And you certainly want fewer bugs. You looked at the architecture, which can also be done like a blooper, you understand where something can go wrong, where there will be a lot of questions, and so on.
In such works, you need to invest less personal emotions. So I'm worried, I wanted to, it seemed to me ... If this will be less (though not to the level of cretinism, which I do not care), it will be a professional approach. Yes, there will be mistakes, yes, something will not work. Of course, people are different. You can tell some people that way, but he will still worry and worry.
- Such, I think, in the profession do not stay long with us.
- Well maybe. In any case, the main thing is professionalism. In any area. The professional understands what he did correctly and professionally. No matter how many programs we have, something is always going slowly, something is outdated, technologies are changing. But you still manage, you are needed. And this is your plus that both employers and society are ready to make some concessions, they are ready to understand you, your mental resource.
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- Yes, awareness is a little of what I said about "disconnecting". Go out to eat, get out into the fresh air. You live in a virtual world, but you need to realize a little, to feel your body, to pause. For example, you are working, then a meeting is scheduled. Well, find these 5 minutes to sit in silence and disconnect from your previous work. This is good for your health and from the standpoint of professionalism. Not that I write one thing, then rush to another, to a third ... At least find a moment when I'm with myself. There are also programs for this, applications on the phone, this topic is actively developing. The least is a pause, to be with yourself, to feel your body, disconnect a little from one task, and then connect to another. But yes, sometimes it happens that you start and go, and you can't stop ...
- We just have one of the features - we need a lot of parameters of what we do, to keep in mind. Therefore, we do not want to be interrupted: if we interrupt, this house of cards immediately falls. And we need to build it every time after a break.
- Well, this is how one told me about diesel locomotives. If the locomotive works, everything is fine. When the resource drops to some 50%, then major repairs need to be done, and it will last much longer. And in real life, if he works, who will do this repair for him? We think about the current moment, but we forget about how our resource can hold out longer. Who will provide a serviceable locomotive for overhaul, even if it will work 2-3 times longer? So it is in life. The brain holds up, but at some point it may not hold up.
- Well, since the center is psychiatric and narcological, the question is about alcohol: how much and how can you? Not even much sooner, but how?
- Let's just say you can drink alcohol when you are in a good mood, good company. And, of course, in moderation. Three days a week with a glass of wine or a glass of beer is possible. It is said that it is good for the cardiovascular system.
Do not drink when there is some anxiety, when you want to solve something with this alcohol. Then the daily use of 100 grams begins to calm down. And a serious problem arises, alcoholism creeps in. Or the second option, when a party and we get drunk to the white bears. When there is a good company, when you feel well, then not much is needed, and you can sit all evening over a glass of wine or a glass of beer with a good conversation. Rarely does anyone not drink at all. But the problem begins when we begin to solve our problems, for example, in relationships, or alcohol fatigue, or anxiety. Alcohol knocks down receptors, and then it is very difficult to treat. Especially women need to be careful. The problem there is more serious. Men somehow recognize this problem and solve it. Women do not recognize, do not decide. Every evening a bottle of wineto disconnect is very serious.
β Β«- Β» ?
- Alcoholism begins when alcohol begins to dominate life. For example, I have a choice: spend the day with my family and children or meet friends and have a drink, and I feel that the choice is towards alcohol. If my memories and good life moments are connected with when I drank and how it was, this already means that alcohol dominates in the brain. This is already the so-called household alcoholism, the pre-stage of alcoholism. Was with friends and forgot to buy or do something. Or drank in the evening and came to work with a hangover in the morning, could not work normally, the day went so-so. It seems that he was not kicked out of work, somehow he managed. This means that I am no longer so critical, and alcohol is already important in my life. This is already a sign. Unfortunately, in society 60-80% of people are household alcoholics. Unfortunately, we ourselves do not notice that this is so.
- That is, in general, among the adult population - we can say that more than half?
- Yes, yes, more than half for sure. They don't even suspect: "This is nonsense, well, we drink." In England, for example, in the same place all transactions go only through pubs. There, offices sit in pubs for half a day. There is already beer, some conversations, the whole life actually goes through alcohol. I would not say that this is good for people's health. Many people are sick, and the health care system there, although good, is no longer able to cope.
So you need to control yourself, which is important for me: my hobbies, sports, and so on, or for me everything is already going through alcohol.
What can I say? Neither add nor subtract. We draw conclusions, each for himself.
What about our body?
As you well know, it is not only the programmer's head that suffers from work. Marina Getman, an emergency medicine doctor, told me what other problems can befall us.
- Stagnation in the venous basin - deep vein thrombosis, thrombophlebitis, post-thrombophilic syndrome, hemorrhoids. With constant disturbance of venous outflow due to an uncomfortable posture, a turbulent flow occurs in a certain place. And if in the same place there is inflammation of the vascular wall and a violation of the rheological properties of the blood (viscosity, etc.), this place has excellent conditions for the formation of a blood clot.
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And in general, in any incomprehensible situation, it is better to consult a doctor and not engage in self-diagnosis. Everything described can be some trifle, or it can lead to serious consequences. You cannot determine the degree of the problem on your own. Even a specialist with a higher medical education is not able to understand the problems of someone else's profile.
In conclusion
I hope you have learned something new for yourself and will be more attentive to your health. As a person who has brought himself to the hospital with an inattentive attitude to health, I can say that there is nothing funny about this. In our youth, it seems to us that we are eternal and reinforced concrete, we are ready to accept any excessive loads for no reason. We systematically ruin our health by earning money, and then we spend money to improve our health. The problem is that it will not be possible to completely restore it. Be judicious.
Well, if I and my co-authors missed something, be sure to write in the comments.
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